Leadership, Reliability & the Future of the Power Grid with Mark Gabriel | PowerGridTalks
What does it take to lead an electric utility in an era of aging infrastructure, rising energy demand, extreme weather, and rapid grid modernization?
In this episode of PowerGridTalks, host Thomas Williamson sits down with Mark Gabriel, President and CEO of United Power, Inc., for an in-depth conversation about utility leadership, power grid reliability, electric cooperatives, workforce development, grid resilience, and the future of the electric utility industry.
Drawing from decades of experience leading utilities and serving the energy sector, Mark shares practical leadership lessons, discusses the challenges facing today's electric utilities, and explains how investing in people, technology, and culture is essential to delivering safe, reliable power. Whether you're a lineman, utility executive, engineer, apprentice, operations manager, or someone interested in the future of the power industry, this conversation offers valuable insight into what it takes to keep America's electric grid strong.
In this episode, you'll learn: ⚡ How strong leadership impacts electric utility reliability ⚡ The biggest challenges facing today's power grid ⚡ Why workforce development is critical for the future of utilities ⚡ How electric cooperatives are adapting to changing energy demands ⚡ Lessons from decades of utility leadership ⚡ The importance of safety, culture, and accountability ⚡ How utilities are preparing for future grid modernization and resilience ⚡ Advice for the next generation of utility professionals and lineworkers
(1:23) - Mark's Accidental Start (3:01) - Career Path to CEO (4:20) - Why Hyperlocal Energy (5:34) - Load Growth Reality Check (8:23) - What's Driving Demand (12:37) - 15 Year Timeline (13:52) - DSO and Portfolio Grid (17:32) - Leaving the Single Supplier (18:35) - Co-op Growth Imbalance (22:27) - Data Centers Impact (23:46) - Making Data Centers Pay (25:57) - Grid Operator Mindset (28:20) - Book Predictions (30:39) - Efficiency vs Infrastructure (31:55) - Life Outside the Office (33:31) - Message to Members
PowerGridTalks brings together the voices shaping the electric utility industry—from journeyman linemen and apprentices to CEOs, engineers, and utility innovators. If you're passionate about electric utilities, transmission and distribution, power restoration, substations, utility operations, grid reliability, energy infrastructure, or the line trade, you'll find practical knowledge and real-world experience in every episode.
🎙 Subscribe for more conversations with the leaders who keep the lights on.
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Today we sat down with Mr. Mark Gabriel, president and CEO
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of United Power in Colorado.
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He's also the author of Visions for a Sustainable Energy Future.
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We talk about his journey through the electric utility industry and the
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experiences that led him where he is today, and then we get into his thoughts
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on the challenges facing our grid, things like explosive load growth,
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demand management, hyperlocalization of energy, and the impacts of these
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data centers everybody's talking about.
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After that, we g- take a look back at the predictions Mark made when
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he wrote his book back in 2008.
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So if you're interested in where our industry is headed and what the future
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of the electric grid looks like, this is an episode you don't wanna miss.
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Let's talk about it.
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You're listening to Power Grid Talks, From the Bucket Trucks to the Boardrooms.
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I'm your host, Tom Williamson, a journeyman lineman with
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over 15 years in the trade.
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Here, we bring you real stories and real conversations from the
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field to the executive suites of the electric utility world.
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It's about the people who keep the power flowing and the grid strong.
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Let's get to work.
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Today on this episode of Power Grid Talks, we're here in Brighton,
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Colorado, and we're sitting down with the president and CEO of United
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Power Incorporated, Mr. Mark Gabriel.
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How we doing, Mark?
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I'm doing great.
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Thanks for having me.
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I appreciate you making time for us today.
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Like I said, I know, I know your schedule's crazy, so it means
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a lot to sit down with you.
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Um, I know you weren't born the CEO of United, so talk to me about how that kinda
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came about and how you got to this point.
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Sure.
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I always say I'm an accidental tourist in this industry, but it's been 35 years.
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Uh, I used to work for a place called the Vermont Marble Company, marble and
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granite, think big buildings, Lincoln Memorial, United Nations building.
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But we also had a power division because back at the turn of the last century,
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and I mean in the 1890s, not the 1990s- … um, many industrial concerns
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picked up electricity, uh, because it helped their industrial processes.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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So a, a buddy of mine was running the, uh, power division we had, the four
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small hydro facilities, a couple of small gas units, but he called me one day
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because I knew the governor of Vermont and I knew the local media, and said
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w- that we were gonna do a cogen plant.
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Now, of course, I had no idea.
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I said, "What's cogen?" And he said, "Well, we're gonna take jet engines
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because we burn f- uh, fuel oil to dry calcium carbonate, which is
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crushed marble, uh, and I wanna do a big event 'cause we're gonna now
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generate electricity with it." So the event turned out to be very popular.
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Uh, Governor Howard Dean at the time, uh, it was a big deal, and I
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just went on to my normal day job.
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A few weeks later, he called and said, "Hey, we have to do this thing called
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demand side management." And I said, "What's that?" And he said, "Well,
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that's where we tell our customers to use less." And I, my reaction was,
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"That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard in, in my life." Uh, but the
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State of Vermont required us to do that, and next thing I know, I was
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helping him out as a favor, uh, creating a demand side management program.
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Pretty soon thereafter, I was recruited to our local utility,
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an investor-owned utility, uh, Central Montana Public Service.
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Spent a number of years there, got lured to California, ended up working for the
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Electric Power Research Institute, uh, where I ended up as acting president.
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Then did, uh, several years of consulting for some of the biggest
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and smallest utilities around the globe, and back in 2013 was, uh,
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recruited to run the Western Area Power Administration, or known as WAPA.
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Okay.
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I took the power from 57 hydro plants across the West and ran a
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transmission system of 17 miles.
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Uh, that-- I was there for about eight years, and then five years ago, actually
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five years ago next month, I was recruited to come here and run United Power.
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Awesome.
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Okay.
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So- A non- a nontraditional route.
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That's definitely a nontraditional route with some very niche
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companies filled in there, right?
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Um, those experiences have gotta be amazing.
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I, I wish we had enough time to sit down and get some more stories from
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that, 'cause I'm sure you've got some awesome ones, uh- I, I really
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think that it's important to note that the experience that's involved
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there on many different levels has helped kind of form your mindset and
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how you look at things today, right?
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And that doesn't just happen overnight.
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It takes years and years of commitment.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That's awesome.
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So, um, now, now you're here at United Power and you're, you're changing
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some things here and, and doing your best to help keep them efficient.
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I saw an article that, that you had posted, and it talked about
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hyper-localization of energy, right?
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So it really caught my attention because I feel like there's so many energy demands
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out there right now, and even earlier this year we saw some releases from
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the regulatory committee saying, "Hey, we, we may have to cut back on people's
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power. We may have to have some, some local blackout situations depending on
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what the demand does here, because our supply and our demand are not talking to
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each other very well right now," right?
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So did that mindset kinda help drive you towards that, or were
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you already on that path before those issues started coming up?
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Well, I, I'm a realist, okay?
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And as I said, I, I ran the Western Area Power Administration, you know,
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miles and miles and miles of big wire.
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Uh, but I started in the business in the distribution side of the house,
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and that's really, quite frankly, where the industry started to begin with.
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We, we didn't create massive power plants and big grids from the get-go.
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We started with various towns and cities and then slightly broader
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states starting to electrify, then we hooked it to transmission.
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But I look at the reality of what we have today, certainly here in
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the Western United States, and I realize it's very different in the
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East Coast, but here in the Western grid, we've got several issues.
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We've got large-scale power plants which are closing.
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We've got a increasing demand, a galloping demand, some would call it.
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Here at United Power, we're up somewhere between 5 to 6% demand per year.
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We're adding 3 to 5 meters per year in this cooperative.
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Um, and so we're looking at that.
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We're also looking at what's going on in society.
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We've got 117 meters, roughly 350 of our members, and we are a co-op.
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I always say to folks, "If you've flown to the Denver Airport and you see all
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the growth around it, that's United Power service territory," just to orient folks.
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Out of 100 residential customers, 13 of our members
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have put solar panels on.
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Okay.
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More than 10 of us are driving electric vehicles.
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More than 500 of our members have batteries.
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Right?
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So that's sort of one set in society.
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The other sad reality is we cannot build enough transmission in
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time to meet this growing demand.
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And that's exactly right.
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And I, I saw a stat the other day, and it was, it was something around, uh, I think
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in 2026 there's over $32 billion worth of transmission projects just for the
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IOUs in this country on, on the schedule.
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There's not enough manpower or materials or anything else to,
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to beat that rush of demand.
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Well, we, we just can't do it.
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Okay.
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I, I, I tally up transmission only because I'm, I would say I'm, uh, you
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know, I love big iron, I cannot lie.
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I like that.
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That- You know, that, that's just kinda my, my orientation.
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The transmission cavalry can't come over the hill in time to save us.
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By my calculation, there's roughly $50 billion worth of transmission projects
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that have been announced In the past five years, we've built 4 billion.
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So now we're looking at more than a 10 to 12X.
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Even assuming we could get through permitting, even assuming we had the
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money, we absolutely don't have the manpower, we don't have the equipment, and
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we certainly don't have the wherewithal to do a 10X growth in transmission.
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So that kinda leads back to what, what I have to deal with at United Power.
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We've gotta continue to support our members.
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We've gotta continue to look at our growth.
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When I joined five years ago, we were a summer peak of 535 megawatts.
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Okay.
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Okay?
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Now my winter peak last year was 535 megawatts- Ooh … and
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we're a summer peaking utility.
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We're nearly 700 megawatts of summer peak right now, and growing
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30 to 50 megawatts year over year.
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So let me ask you your opinion on this wh- while you're on that topic.
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That demand, is it population growing?
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Is it we're getting more electrified as a society?
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Or is it a little bit of all of it?
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What, what's driving a lot of it?
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I, I think it, it's all of the above.
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Okay, okay.
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Um, a, a number of years ago when I worked at the Electric Power Research
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Institute, my boss used to say, you know, "Electricity is the solution, it's not the
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problem." We've known that electrification of everything from oil and gas fields
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to vehicles to industrial processes is cleaner, faster, and more efficient.
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That's just- Fair enough, yep … that, that's just the reality of it.
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Yeah.
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Um, and so you've got a lot of drivers.
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There is a population growth.
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Certainly here for United Power, as I said, we're growing
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3 to 5 meters per year.
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That's the equivalent to a typical u- co-op- Yeah … right, in, in, across the
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country we're adding every single year.
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But on top of that, whether it's building, process m- uh, equipment, how we think
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about it, uh, one of our largest, um… it's a, in fact, it's our largest
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non-oil and gas member, Golden Aluminum.
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They make, uh, I always say the white cloth cans and
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all- Yeah … of that metal.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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They're switching away from natural gas to electric- electricity.
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Why?
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It gives you better endpoint control, it's much more
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efficient, it's, uh, it's quieter.
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Yeah.
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It, it deal… it has got a lot of benefits.
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So that's pretty typical of what we're seeing.
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Okay.
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Uh, in addition, of course, in, in our case, we've got 4 oil and
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gas wells in our service territory.
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Many, many are looking at electrification of their facilities.
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Well, why are they doing that?
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Number one, it's quieter, cleaner A little bit less expensive, but more
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importantly, it allows them here in the state of Colorado where we've got pretty
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rigid rules about air emissions by 2030 and carbon reductions- Mm-hmm … that's
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the one way they meet those rules.
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Okay.
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So they can fit into the mold better that way.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Exactly.
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And so, you know, I'll go back to the hyper-localization.
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What has that meant for us?
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When I looked out five years ago when I got here, I said, "How am I going to
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supply an ever-ne- increasing demand?
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What do I do?
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How do I think about it?" Well, first and foremost- Yeah … we said, "Hey,
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we've gotta think about storage."
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So th- two years ago, we added 115 megawatts of battery storage-
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Okay … distributed at substations.
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We already had had, uh, four and a half megawatts that we piloted here
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back in 2018, so now nine of our substations have batteries ranging
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from eight megawatts to 33 megawatts.
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Okay.
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They're on the distribution system because it helps me with reliance, re- resilience,
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reliability, and local control.
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I can run those batteries up to, depends which ones, but most of
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them are four hours or six hours.
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I can run them in bits and pieces, meaning I don't have to discharge
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it once and charge it once.
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It added to the robustness of my system, and it's local.
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Just this past August, we opened up 162-megawatt natural gas
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plant called Mount Peak Power.
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We permitted it and constructed it in 20 months, so from concept to
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construction was under two years.
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That's pretty fast.
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Yeah, it's, it's amazing.
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And, um, aeroderivatives from, from GLM 2500s.
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We got it constructed.
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It paid for itself within the first month.
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Okay.
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Right?
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So, and guess what?
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It's in my service territory, so that means jobs in my service territory,
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which as a cooperative is important.
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It means tax revenues in my service territory.
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I can stay off transmission, which lowers the cost.
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So all of these things are valuable.
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And I, and I always point out to folks, it's not like I had a choice.
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It's not like I said, "Well, I'm going to buy some, uh, from a gas plant 300
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miles away 'cause they're gonna build transmission in time to support it."
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We just don't have that option.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And my- That card's been taken out of the deck already.
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That ca- it's, it's been taken out, so would I like to see more transmission?
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Absolutely.
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Do I wanna see more big generation locally?
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Absolutely.
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But I can't rely on that to supply the needs of our growing community.
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And if you wait on that to happen, you're already behind the ball for you guys.
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Look, the, the average tra- transmission line takes 15 years from concept
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I mean, so you think about that a moment, 15-year cycle, and I, I
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lived it directly when I was at WAPA.
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The concept of the TransWest Express Project, going from Chokecherry, Wyoming
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all the way to the LA Basin, right?
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That whole line was a WAPA project.
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It was conceived in roughly, uh, 2005.
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I signed the record of decision to build in 2015.
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Wow.
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And this summer we will see first segments.
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Just, just put- That timeline's amazing.
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Think about- People don't realize how, how much goes in behind
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the scenes of those projects.
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Right.
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And, and that assumes you can get the crews and you can get the equipment.
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Yeah.
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Uh, the competition for equipment is dramatic across the globe, and
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we… So we have to think about, we just have to think differently.
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And I'd also point out everything in our lives has become hyper-localized.
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I mean, it- Okay
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think about it, right?
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When, when I was a kid, you got three TV channels, right?
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And you all watched the same thing.
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Yep.
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Uh, today the cable companies can't stay in business because we're
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hyper-localizing our, our resource.
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Yep.
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Right?
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And so why would the electric business be any different?
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That's very, that's a very good mindset.
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Yeah, I like the, I like that look of it.
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And let- let's talk about what hyper-localizing even means.
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'Cause a lot of people, they hear the term and they think
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so- solar panels on the roofs.
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And that is part of it, right?
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But there's a lot of pieces to that.
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I've heard you make the analogy of, uh, it's like a stock portfolio
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So let's talk about what that kind of looks like, because it's not
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just all your eggs in one basket.
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No.
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In fact, uh, to me, the highest risk you could have is only
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have eggs in one basket.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Well, there are utilities in this country that are relying on one or two power
00:14:22
plants, and when those plants go out, whether it's for forced outage or because
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they have to refuel or for any, a variety of reasons, um, you're really stuck.
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So what I look at here, and the team has done a great job, we're working to
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become a distribution system operator, not just a distribution operator.
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So what does that mean?
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The fact of the matter is 13 of my 100 residential
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members have solar roofs.
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How can I take advantage of that, especially during critical times, right?
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It means stitching together all the parts and pieces that are out
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there and on a localized level.
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That way, if I can aggregate and operate as a DSO first in my footprint, I can
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then, when the market comes, which I'm excited to say is going to happen April
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1st of 2026- Okay … the SBP market will su- be supporting about 70% of Colorado.
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Nice.
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Um, that market then allows us to buy and sell differently.
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Okay.
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You know, I always think about it as, as, like we consider computing today, right?
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If I sit in my office, I have my cellphone, I have a, a voice, a
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VoIP phone, I have my iPad, I have my computer, I've got screens.
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They're all connected seamlessly.
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I don't sit there and say, "Well, I'm gonna make a decision today, and
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I'm gonna only run my iPad," right?
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And I th- I believe we've got to consider the grid in that fashion
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Which means you've gotta configure things a little bit differently.
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It's not just a big power plant to a big pipe to a smaller
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pipe to a meter to the home.
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And that m- I, I believe that model is completely gone, uh,
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we just don't know it yet.
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Okay.
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So in, in the midst of, of doing the, the hyper-localization and, and getting
00:16:07
this stock portfolio of options, if you will, what does that mean to
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your, to your company internally?
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Is that, is that bringing on more people internally?
00:16:15
Is it relying on outside res- resources more?
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Like, how does that, how does that come into it?
00:16:20
Again, it's, it's, it's a bit of both.
00:16:22
Okay.
00:16:22
So yes, we have bolstered our, our, uh, team here internally.
00:16:26
About in, uh, let's see, May of 2024, we left our single power supplier that we
00:16:31
had, and now I have 27 power contracts.
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Okay?
00:16:35
Okay.
00:16:35
So that's managed both with additional staff in-house, but very
00:16:39
importantly, we work with a group called The Energy Authority, or TEA.
00:16:43
They're our staff extension.
00:16:45
Now, why did we do that?
00:16:46
I didn't… I used to run four desks at my last, uh, organization.
00:16:51
I didn't wanna do that again.
00:16:52
But they've got national weather models.
00:16:55
They have all the tools.
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They buy and sell for us.
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We- under our direction.
00:16:59
Okay.
00:16:59
So it's a, it's a really valuable partnership.
00:17:01
I would have had to add 24 people just to do what- Yeah … what that-
00:17:07
Yeah … uh, allows us to do today.
00:17:09
Okay.
00:17:09
And so it, it makes a real difference in, in how we think.
00:17:13
Uh, but I will say when you compare United Power to peer cooperatives, we
00:17:18
have by far the, uh, leanest staff, uh, meanest, not, not in a nasty way, but-
00:17:24
you know, the getting the, we get the job done very efficiently
00:17:27
and effectively for our members.
00:17:28
Yeah.
00:17:29
Full of grit and ready to do whatever the team needs.
00:17:30
Uh, whatever it takes.
00:17:31
That's awesome.
00:17:32
So let, let's talk about that decision to walk away from that one single power
00:17:37
supplier, because that had been the, the way it went here for a long time, right?
00:17:42
Um, I'm sure you got a lot of pushback.
00:17:45
Um, I can't imagine walking through that and kind of having those
00:17:49
conversations, because I think it, um, I think it was a lot, and I think
00:17:51
that's hard to explain to people who can't see the big picture of things.
00:17:55
Obviously, it's worked out well.
00:17:57
It's worked out very well, and I, and I will say the c- the, the idea of leaving
00:18:01
the single power supplier, uh, started long before I got to United Power.
00:18:05
Okay.
00:18:05
All right.
00:18:06
But here's one of the challenges we have, and look, I'm a firm
00:18:09
believer in the co-op business model.
00:18:11
I've worked in IOUs, I've worked with munis.
00:18:13
I, I l- I love 'em all, right?
00:18:14
So it's like my, all my children.
00:18:16
But the, the important thing to understand, in the early days of the
00:18:21
cooperative model, it was really very tough for small co-ops to build power
00:18:26
plants, to build transmission lines, to
00:18:28
Because all this, the, uh, construction was large.
00:18:32
Yeah.
00:18:32
So we formed into these G&Ts, right?
00:18:35
The generation and transmission organizations.
00:18:38
Well, that worked great when everybody was kind of sort of the same size.
00:18:42
Yeah.
00:18:42
Right?
00:18:42
That, they made sense then.
00:18:44
Well, what happened over time, because of our rapid growth here at United Power,
00:18:49
we became 20% of our G&T's business.
00:18:53
Okay.
00:18:53
The next biggest was eight, the next biggest was five, and we were bo-
00:18:58
bigger than the bottom 26 put together.
00:19:00
Wow, that's a huge difference.
00:19:01
Yeah, it's a huge difference, and so we got one vote.
00:19:04
Yeah.
00:19:04
Right?
00:19:04
So how hard is it to rally a bunch of people to, um, move
00:19:09
expenses, shall we say, or costs- Yeah … to the one big guy, right?
00:19:13
So that was, that was kind of, I, I'd say at the core of the, of the decision.
00:19:18
Um, the second thing is that we had a limitation, I call it a choke collar,
00:19:23
that we could get no more than 5% of our power from someone else besides the G&T.
00:19:27
Okay.
00:19:29
Well, that doesn't work in a world where we have our members who
00:19:32
wanna put their own generation on.
00:19:34
It doesn't work in a world where folks say, "Hey, we don't like that fuel
00:19:38
mix. We wanna see a more renewable portfolio." It doesn't work in a world
00:19:44
where, uh, opport- we have to turn down opportunities or get penalized for doing
00:19:49
things that were good for our members and good f- to meet the state requirements.
00:19:53
So there's a huge issue there, and I guess the third leg of this, and it was
00:19:57
a multifaceted process, I can tell you.
00:20:00
Oh, yeah.
00:20:00
Um, uh, the, the third leg of this was really there were services being provided
00:20:04
to us that we just didn't need, right?
00:20:06
Uh, because of our size.
00:20:07
We, we had to do our own stuff in-house.
00:20:10
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:10
The decision was made.
00:20:12
I will thank our board profusely for it.
00:20:15
Uh, you know, it was a big risk.
00:20:17
Yeah.
00:20:17
We, we, we were first told we couldn't find capacity, and then we were told
00:20:22
we'd never really leave, then we were told we would never, uh, never win at
00:20:27
FERC, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, and then we were told
00:20:30
we could never raise the money.
00:20:32
Um- We've done all of those things.
00:20:34
Yeah.
00:20:35
And you know, if I, in retrospect, would I have preferred not to have left?
00:20:39
Absolutely.
00:20:40
We tried not to leave.
00:20:42
We tried to come up with an, an agre- agreement that was, um, Uh,
00:20:46
that would work for everybody.
00:20:48
But it's like the old joke, you know, why is divorce so expensive?
00:20:51
It's 'cause it's worth it.
00:20:52
That's it.
00:20:53
That's it.
00:20:53
It- and change isn't easy in any aspect of life, right?
00:20:57
And the, the bigger the scale gets, the bigger the change gets, the
00:21:00
more conversation comes around it and the harder that decision is.
00:21:04
But I think a lot of people can relate to that.
00:21:06
Change is just not something that is easy for most people these days.
00:21:09
Well, it's like a button I used to wear that s- said, you know,
00:21:11
"I'm all for progress, it's change I can't stand." Yeah.
00:21:13
There you go.
00:21:14
There you go.
00:21:16
So we're, we're doing hyper- hyperlocalization here, and that looks
00:21:21
totally different than the model where they're putting transmission lines
00:21:26
in a- and pumping electricity from the East Coast to Colorado, right?
00:21:30
Um, do PPAs still come into effect in your s- portfolio?
00:21:36
Oh, we are primar- we are primarily a PPA organization.
00:21:39
Okay.
00:21:39
And we did that intentionally.
00:21:41
As I said, at my last job I had 57 power plants.
00:21:44
I'm, I'm no stranger to operating power plants.
00:21:47
But our expertise is really running a distribution utility, and I think
00:21:51
one of the best in the country.
00:21:53
Our SAIDI numbers are in the, in the 60-minute range, right?
00:21:56
Which is- That's good … 50% of the national average.
00:21:58
Yeah.
00:21:59
Uh, we have a system that I, I, I'm extremely proud of in how we operate, how
00:22:04
quickly we can respond to our members.
00:22:06
So yes, I, I get in theory if somebody, uh, put a new nuclear plant in f-
00:22:11
you know, 500 miles away and ran a line across the AC-DC ties on the,
00:22:16
on the eastern to western mid, you know, connection, I will sign…
00:22:19
Sign me up.
00:22:20
Okay.
00:22:21
But I just don't see that happening in a time that satisfies what we need to
00:22:25
do to keep supporting our, our members.
00:22:27
So here, here, if I'm, if I'm one of your members, what's, what's coming
00:22:31
to my mind right now is, okay, we have some PPAs in place a- and we're, we're
00:22:36
getting power a lot of different places.
00:22:37
We're using hyperlocalization.
00:22:39
All we hear about on the internet and the news these days is data centers.
00:22:44
Data centers are going up all over this country, and they're driving the
00:22:46
demand for energy through the roof.
00:22:48
And a lot of utilities are either saying they're gonna have to raise
00:22:52
their rates because of a data center issue, or they're being told that the
00:22:57
amount of energy on the grid is not available as much as it used to be.
00:23:02
With your PPAs in place, how do those data centers in other parts
00:23:05
of the country affect you guys?
00:23:06
Well, you know, the data center, uh, opportunity, and I view it
00:23:10
as an opportunity, is both an existential threat and an existential
00:23:13
opportunity for this industry.
00:23:16
So I look at it in a couple fashions.
00:23:18
First, if you total the market capitalization of the top 100
00:23:21
utilities in America of any kind- Okay
00:23:24
it's $2.7 trillion.
00:23:26
Okay.
00:23:26
Big number, right?
00:23:27
Yeah.
00:23:28
The market cap of The Magnificent Seven, you know, the, the Metas, the M- Metas,
00:23:32
the Microsoft, Googles- Oh, yeah … all that stuff, they're 34.5 trillion.
00:23:37
So who's gonna win that game if we don't figure out how to serve them?
00:23:40
Yeah.
00:23:41
We have a data center now.
00:23:42
They're doubling in size.
00:23:43
We have three others that we're working with.
00:23:46
Okay.
00:23:46
I actually think that data centers will drive costs down
00:23:51
if this is approached properly.
00:23:52
Okay.
00:23:52
You have to do three things.
00:23:54
You have to make sure that the data center is on the hook for any
00:23:57
increases in cost for infrastructure.
00:24:00
That's a watchword of what we d- already do at United Power.
00:24:03
If you come to me and say, "I'm gonna build a 20-unit, uh, apartment
00:24:08
building," you're gonna pay for that infrastructure right up front.
00:24:11
Yeah, it just makes sense.
00:24:12
Growth, we call it growth pays.
00:24:13
Yeah.
00:24:13
If I'm number … So f- from the infrastructure standpoint,
00:24:16
we get the money up front.
00:24:17
Number two, if you're coming in, we're gonna make you commit for
00:24:20
and pay for that power contract.
00:24:24
Okay.
00:24:24
Good.
00:24:25
Number three, what does that mean?
00:24:26
Well, it means when I go out for my next, uh, RFP for a power
00:24:30
pur- purchase agreement, I'm not gonna look for 100 megawatts.
00:24:34
I may look for 400 megawatts, and this is a case where the more you
00:24:38
buy, the more you save, right?
00:24:39
Yeah.
00:24:39
So in fact, it should drive costs down for the system.
00:24:42
Okay.
00:24:43
Okay.
00:24:43
The other piece, and I, and I … Th- this is the topic at
00:24:46
every conversation of every place I've gone for the last three years.
00:24:50
I think some of the data center, uh, exuberance is exaggerated.
00:24:54
Yeah.
00:24:54
Because what we've already seen here is the same data center that comes to talk to
00:24:58
my key account staff is talking to the key account staff of the utility down the road
00:25:03
and the one in Kansas, and so it's the same project being counted multiple times.
00:25:07
Yeah.
00:25:08
It's kinda that bandwagon of hyping it up.
00:25:11
It- Right?
00:25:12
It is.
00:25:12
It is hyping it up.
00:25:12
Yeah.
00:25:13
And so I, I'm always, I'm a little bit cau- Now, we put in a process.
00:25:16
We have a large load process.
00:25:18
We require people to pay us $50 up front to come to talk to us,
00:25:23
non-refundable, a $650 fully refundable, uh, deposit to pay for system
00:25:29
impact studies and all of those things.
00:25:31
And then when the time comes and you, you're gonna si- you're gonna
00:25:34
put your balance sheet on the line for the other, the power, not our
00:25:39
balance sheet for our members 'cause we wanna keep them safe and secure.
00:25:42
A- a- and your members have to be proud of that, even if they don't know it, right?
00:25:47
Because let's face it, most of the members out there aren't that de- de-
00:25:51
aren't that deep into the conversation.
00:25:53
But knowing that someone like you is looking out for them has gotta make
00:25:56
them feel a little bit better about it.
00:25:57
Yeah.
00:25:57
Um, do you think we'll see, as these data centers start popping up, do you
00:26:00
think we'll see more of the data centers having to generate their own power?
00:26:06
On a hyperlocal scale for themselves?
00:26:09
Yeah, that's a, that's an interesting dynamic.
00:26:11
We're having a lot of conversation.
00:26:13
M- I'll go back to my commentary about becoming a distribution system operator.
00:26:17
If a data center comes in and has a power supply that they can procure,
00:26:21
I very much wanna work with them so that we manage it for them.
00:26:25
Remember, their expertise is in the data center.
00:26:29
It's not in the electron center, right?
00:26:32
So anybody who's decides, "Yes, I'm gonna put in a generator for either
00:26:36
backup or batteries," who better to come to than the local cooperative that
00:26:40
actually knows how to use the system?
00:26:43
And so we've gotta tweak our mindset.
00:26:46
Just like when you show up at home and you have an Apple Watch, you have an
00:26:50
iPhone, you have an iPad, you have a, a, a TV, uh, you know, all those things,
00:26:55
there's a system behind that, right?
00:26:58
We need to think about it that we're the router and less about we have to
00:27:02
provide every piece of the value chain.
00:27:04
A- and I like that mindset, and I think a, a lot of more successful
00:27:09
people have that same mindset as it's not all competition out there.
00:27:13
We can work together.
00:27:14
We can harmonize.
00:27:15
We can coincide, and if we do, there's gonna be more benefits
00:27:19
for everybody out of it.
00:27:20
100… We, uh, again, I would argue we don't really have a
00:27:23
choice but to do that, right?
00:27:24
There's a limited number of, of, uh, gas gensets out there.
00:27:28
There's a finite number of batteries, right?
00:27:31
And what does, what does your local co-op do better than anything else?
00:27:35
That's manage the local grid, right?
00:27:38
And- Yeah, for sure
00:27:38
and so why wouldn't you wanna go to that player?
00:27:41
That's, that's a great way to look at it.
00:27:42
No, that's very, that's very… I, and I hope that mindset catches on
00:27:46
the more, the more talk there is.
00:27:48
And I am a strong believer that we're in the times of misinformation right now.
00:27:53
There's a lot of misinformation out there on the internet, and that's where
00:27:56
everybody kind of frenzies and feeds off of, like we talked about the bandwagon
00:27:59
of let's just jump on this bandwagon of the hype of these data centers.
00:28:03
There is a lot of that going on.
00:28:05
Well, I think it's important, again, to, you, you deal with the expertise.
00:28:09
Uh, you know, it's like when you don't feel good.
00:28:11
Do you go to Dr. Google, or do you go to your primary care physician?
00:28:15
Uh, one leads you down a different path than the other.
00:28:17
For sure.
00:28:18
Yeah, that's exactly right.
00:28:20
Um, so- I know that you have released a book earlier.
00:28:27
It was like 2008-ish, right?
00:28:28
Right.
00:28:29
Um, and that was A, A Vision on Sustainable Energy.
00:28:33
Well, it was Visions for Sustainable Energy Future.
00:28:36
Okay.
00:28:36
All right.
00:28:37
So the- So let's talk about your mindset then, and did you
00:28:41
see any of this coming now?
00:28:43
The answer is I saw most of this coming.
00:28:45
Okay.
00:28:46
Um, and there w- there were, there were w- what I describe as two clear
00:28:50
misses, one at, one in particular.
00:28:52
Uh, in 2008, 2009 t- timeframe when I wrote the book, the natural
00:28:57
gas, uh, revolution b- due to fracking, uh, had not really hit yet.
00:29:03
Makes sense.
00:29:04
Uh, a- although I will be quick to point out, having worked for the DOE for eight
00:29:07
years, uh, DOE funded a lot of that early work on hydraulic fracturing.
00:29:12
Uh, so that was one area that was kind of missed, um, only because the, at
00:29:16
that point it was, yes, we were gonna, you know, add more renewables, and
00:29:20
yes, we were gonna continue to use cleaner coal and maybe new nuclear.
00:29:26
Um, and so that was a miss that I never quite, couldn't see at that point.
00:29:30
Yeah.
00:29:30
Now, of course we, you get smarter, at least I think with smarter with age-
00:29:34
or smarter with information.
00:29:36
And the other piece is that, uh, it w- it, it's in the book very much about
00:29:40
aging infrastructure, but the power of computing and how we manage the system I
00:29:48
could not envision how far we have come.
00:29:51
The fact is that from my cellphone I can control my thermostat or our engineers
00:29:57
can control when the batteries cycle on and off through a SCADA system,
00:30:02
through an outage management system.
00:30:04
Remember in '08, '09, nobody had AMI, advanced metering infrastructure.
00:30:08
Yeah.
00:30:08
We had drive-by was, like, the latest, greatest things.
00:30:11
But the fundamentals of the book, the, the challenge of what I call the
00:30:15
carbon capacity, um, conflict, we st- we're still facing that today, right?
00:30:21
That's awesome.
00:30:22
In the Western United States, we have a lack of capacity.
00:30:26
Plenty of energy.
00:30:27
There's no problem with energy, but the, the rock backbone capacity is
00:30:32
getting smaller and smaller and smaller and more expensive while energy's
00:30:35
getting cheaper and cheaper and cheaper, so it's kind of interesting.
00:30:39
Aging infrastructure.
00:30:40
Yeah.
00:30:40
I, I'm a firm believer that, uh, even though I started in energy efficiency when
00:30:45
I was first at the utility, we allowed the conversation about energy efficiency
00:30:50
to not just delay the construction of power plants, but delay the investment
00:30:56
in infrastructure because the, and I'll suggest my, uh, investor on utility
00:31:01
brethren and the regulators thought, "Oh, we can just defer that as well.
00:31:05
Let's not build that transmission line.
00:31:08
Let's not build that substation," even though that's not what
00:31:12
energy efficiency really does.
00:31:13
Energy efficiency absolutely is wonderful at helping use less of
00:31:18
the commodity, and therefore maybe not building as many power plants.
00:31:22
But when it bridged into infrastructure, so today when I see this issue about,
00:31:27
gee, electricity rates are going up, it's as much because we have under invested
00:31:32
as an industry over the last 20 years under the false premise that we're gonna
00:31:38
efficient- efficiency our way out of the problem, and that just doesn't work.
00:31:42
Yeah.
00:31:42
It's, it's not viable.
00:31:43
No, my analogy is very simple.
00:31:45
You can have a car that gets greater, uh, miles per gallon, but that doesn't
00:31:49
mean you don't need to repave the road.
00:31:51
That's it.
00:31:51
That's it.
00:31:52
Yeah.
00:31:52
No, that's a great way to look at it.
00:31:54
Perfect.
00:31:55
So I know you spend a lot of your time in the office in meetings a-
00:31:59
and you're just wrapped up in, in the world of, of the utility industry.
00:32:05
When you're not at work, what do you do?
00:32:07
Well, I'm a … I love to hunt and fish.
00:32:09
Okay.
00:32:09
And so, uh, you know, that's a lot.
00:32:10
I like to go hiking.
00:32:11
That's one of the reasons I live here in Colorado, uh, to be outside.
00:32:15
Um, just really spending time outside.
00:32:18
All right.
00:32:19
You know, camping, uh, RVing.
00:32:21
I, well, my wife finally forced me into buying a, an RV
00:32:25
motor home last year after…
00:32:28
A- a- and the joke is, and it's, my license plate's round.
00:32:31
It said, "All I wanted was a tent," 'cause that's, that's true.
00:32:34
Um, but anything to do with the outdoors and- Awesome … is,
00:32:37
is really important to me.
00:32:38
Okay.
00:32:39
All right.
00:32:40
A- and if- If you're gonna be out there RVing and you guys are having dinner,
00:32:48
what's a, what's a favorite thing to have when you're out there camping?
00:32:51
What's- Well, again, I'm a big hunter, so there's nothing like a couple elk steaks
00:32:55
or, uh- Exactly … or some antelope sausage and a nice bottle of wine.
00:32:59
U- until you've had that elk steak, you can't … There's nothing like it.
00:33:03
No, it's, that's absolutely it.
00:33:04
Yeah.
00:33:05
Yeah.
00:33:05
And especially if you've got a story behind it, right?
00:33:07
Always.
00:33:08
Always.
00:33:08
Yeah.
00:33:08
So that's some of the best part about hunting is just the story.
00:33:10
You're just getting out away, not having your cell phone on, and just
00:33:13
being able to kinda relax and, and wash off the rest of the world, right?
00:33:16
Absolutely.
00:33:17
Perfect.
00:33:17
Well, listen, I, I appreciate your time today.
00:33:19
I, I know you're a busy guy.
00:33:21
Um, I really enjoy your mindset towards the, the hyper-localization of energy.
00:33:26
I think it's a really good model.
00:33:27
I really think that there's a lot to be learned from that.
00:33:29
Hopefully people can go out and get your book.
00:33:31
Is there anything that you wanna give as far as a message to
00:33:34
your members while we're here?
00:33:35
Well, again, I think we are working diligently to keep the
00:33:38
l- safely keep the lights on.
00:33:39
I, I've said that for the 35 years I've been in the business.
00:33:43
Um, sometimes there's a perception that utilities are sitting in
00:33:46
dark rooms, uh, executives smoking cigars and plotting to despoil the
00:33:51
environment like Avatar, right?
00:33:53
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:53
And that's not it.
00:33:54
And m- my experience, having been in the rooms in my later career as
00:33:58
CEO, um, we're sitting, how do we safely keep the lights on in the most
00:34:02
environmentally friendly way possible?
00:34:04
Yeah.
00:34:04
Understanding affordability and cost are critical, and that's
00:34:08
what I wake up every day.
00:34:10
I look at my cell phone when I get up at 5:45 to go work out,
00:34:13
and I look at three things.
00:34:15
Is everybody safe?
00:34:17
Did we keep the lights on?
00:34:19
And what was my load yesterday?
00:34:21
That's great.
00:34:22
Yeah.
00:34:22
Perfect.
00:34:23
Good deal.
00:34:24
Well, I appre- I appreciate your time.
00:34:25
Uh, thank you very much for sitting down with us, and we'll talk soon.
00:34:29
Happy to do it.
00:34:29
Thank you for having me.
00:34:31
That's it for today's episode of Power Grid Talks: From the
00:34:34
Bucket Trucks to the Boardrooms.
00:34:36
I'm your host, Tom Williamson.
00:34:38
I wanna thank you for joining me as we talk to the people behind the
00:34:41
scenes who keep our grid strong.
00:34:44
If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to hit that subscribe button, give
00:34:47
it a share, and leave a review so we can keep bringing more voices from across the
00:34:52
utility world to the conversation table.
00:34:54
You can also find us at powergridtalks.com.
00:34:58
Until next time, stay safe and keep the power flowing.